Jon Singer ([info]jonsinger) wrote,

An RGB "white light" dye laser

The nitrogen laser has mostly been behaving itself, though it did coat the inside surface of one of its windows with powdery glop, obliging me to remove and replace that window. I can’t really complain, though. For the most part it is a happy little camper, and it appears to be delivering a little over 200,000 watts. (Should be more, but I may have screwed up some parameters in the design. I am expecting to rebuild another of my nitrogen lasers fairly soon, and we’ll see whether I can coax better performance out of that one.)

So, what do you do with a nitrogen laser? I suppose that depends on lots of things, but one common use for them is to pump organic dye lasers. (See, for example, the photo in my previous posting.)

I have a cold, and I have very little energy, but I can only sit around blowing my nose for so long, after which I get kinda stir-crazy. Hmmm, there’s this nitrogen laser on the bench; I wonder if I can make RGB “white” laser light from one single cuvette of dye...

It is not too horribly difficult to get two colors at once if you choose your dyes carefully. Two-color dye lasers have been reported in the literature, probably several times. I’m also sure that people have pumped multiple cuvettes of different dyes, and combined the outputs to get an RGB mix; but that isn’t what I wanted to do. I wanted 3 dyes in the same container, all lasing at the same time.

That was clearly not going to be easy, for a number of reasons. First off, shorter-wavelength dyes can often transfer energy to longer-wavelength dyes. Sometimes you can make use of that, to help the longer-wavelength dye lase better, or to assist a dye that doesn’t absorb nitrogen laser output very well by transferring energy to it from a dye that does; but if enough energy gets transferred away, it can stop the shorter-wavelength dye from lasing. For example, adding even a very small amount of Rhodamine B [which lases red] to a solution of Fluorescein [which lases green] in ethanol will quench the Fluorescein and stop it from lasing. (I know this because I tried it.) It should come as no surprise that finding a compatible set of three dyes is considerably more difficult than it is with only two.

Once you have three dyes that appear to play well together, and a solvent to put them in, you then have to adjust the concentrations of all of them. This (he said, through slightly gritted teeth) turns out to be absolute flaming madness. I got 3-color lasing, just barely, several times, ...and lost it several times while trying to balance the colors. At one point I diluted the solution slightly, and the red dye just stopped lasing, pouf. Gone. Argh. It is also regrettably easy to add too much dye, which tends to stop all of the dyes from lasing.

One ends up doing a dance in which one dilutes the solution just a little, adds a barely-visible amount of dye, tests it again and notes what is off balance this time; ...lather, rinse, repeat. I won’t even get into the issue of aligning the optics every time the cuvette goes back into place, which are also fairly tweaky. (Yes, I know, I should build a strong and upright cuvette holder, and I should tie down all of the mounts that hold the lenses and mirrors, not just some of them. I will get there, eventually.)

Some of the intermediate results, though not quite what I was looking for, were fairly pretty:



(All three colors can be seen in that pattern, but they are not correctly balanced, and there isn’t any part of the beam that is more or less neutral in color. Sigh. At least it was nice to look at.)

This effort ended up taking me about two and a half days (...and I still have the lousy cold; feh!). Here are two views of the final result, which I arrived at earlier this evening. The first shows the output of the dye laser on a paper target; the colors, at least in the central spot, are [finally!] moderately well balanced, though I’m sure the CRI is appreciably less than 100. There are, after all, limits.







The second was taken with a diffraction grating in front of the camera; the dye output is on the right, and the dots on the left are the spectrum of the output. The bright red object at the bottom of the image is the top of the cuvette that contains the dye solution.



“A pleasant afternoon’s entertainment.”

[Ahem.]

Note: I have added a report with more technical detail to the Joss Research Website.

Further note, added later: the Institute’s Website has been redesigned and reimplemented, and they are still working out some bugs. If you go to www.jossresearch.org and click the “TJIIRRS” button, you should be able to get to a list of reports. With some luck, you’ll be able to navigate to report 14 from that list.

Cheers —
jon

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  • 36 comments

[info]gravitrue

December 10 2009, 05:17:56 UTC 2 years ago

wow. I would love to see this in person some time.

[info]jonsinger

December 10 2009, 05:30:40 UTC 2 years ago Edited:  December 10 2009, 05:30:59 UTC

Alas, unless you find yourself drifting to the south (I'm not far from DC), it could be a while — the devices are not very portable.

My condolences about your dad.

Like your writing, btw; the 12 August piece is particularly cool.

Best —
jon

[info]donsimpson

December 10 2009, 08:25:51 UTC 2 years ago

What do you do with a nitrogen laser?
What do you do with a nitrogen laser?
What do you do with a nitrogen laser?
Early in the morning....

[info]aedifica

December 10 2009, 15:18:29 UTC 2 years ago

Exactly what I was going to comment. I'm guessing it's not "put it in the longboat til it's sober..."

Anonymous

2 years ago

[info]donsimpson

2 years ago

[info]jonsinger

2 years ago

[info]jonsinger

2 years ago

[info]jonsinger

2 years ago

[info]jonsinger

December 11 2009, 00:27:38 UTC 2 years ago

Bwah-ha-ha-ha.

Aim it at some dye to make another laser
Aim it at some dye to make another laser
Aim it at some dye to make another laser,
Early in the morning.

(I really do end up down there, fairly often, late enough at night that it is early in the morning, properly speaking.)

Cheers —
jon

[info]faunhaert

December 10 2009, 13:11:28 UTC 2 years ago

lazers are interesting

my dad worked on ruby ones for honeywell

maybe a tripple tank?
3 narrow ones the shapes of books side by side

---[][][]≤:::::

would keep the dyes seperate
but make them seem like they were being hit together?

hot lemonade with ginger n raw honey helps

[info]jonsinger

December 11 2009, 00:38:57 UTC 2 years ago

Re: lasers are interesting

Ruby ones make a really pretty color, a lovely deep red.

I think the usual way is 3 entirely separate dye lasers, because that way you don't have to worry about any of them absorbing the output from any of the others. (Even though you get 3 beams that you have to combine, which is a pain, having three separate ones is a lot more efficient than putting the dyes together into one tank.)

Hot lemonade w/raw honey & ginger has to be a very good idea. (Ginger is great even when you aren't sick.) Fortunately, I seem to be getting over the cold.

Best —
jon

[info]oakmouse

December 10 2009, 13:24:31 UTC 2 years ago

Fascinating.

Get well soon! Nibbling on candied ginger may or may not help Ye Colde, but it will at least make life a bit less blah. ;)

[info]jonsinger

December 11 2009, 00:40:01 UTC 2 years ago

Hi.

I have this wicked stuff called "Ting Ting Jahe", which is a gummy sort of ginger candy made in Indonesia. It's pretty potent. Ginger is enough of a panacea that it probably actually does help the cold.

Hugs —
j

[info]oakmouse

December 11 2009, 18:04:54 UTC 2 years ago

I gave Ting Tings up when diagnosed because they contain maltose, which is a no for a celiac. We still have a dozen or so boxes, though, because JM hasn't eaten as many of them as he used to. They do rock, however!

[info]jonsinger

2 years ago

[info]oakmouse

2 years ago

[info]gilraen2

December 10 2009, 15:29:37 UTC 2 years ago

mem is thrilled that she knows a genuine mad scientist. most people of her acquaintance have to make do with computer geeks and rocket scientists.

[info]jonsinger

December 11 2009, 00:44:44 UTC 2 years ago

"Bwah-ha-ha-ha!"

(Sorry; that was obligatory.)

If you're thinking of the same rocket scientist I am, it is hardly a case of having to make do.

I am about to run off to the kitchen and make some cookies, which I will post if they work well (and possibly if they don't). If you ask me, which you didn't, it's an obvious Right And Proper Mad Scientist Thing To Do. [Pseudoquote: ‘If they have no bread, let them eat daryols.’ So there.]

Hugs —
j

[info]nemosed

December 10 2009, 15:43:30 UTC 2 years ago

Very beautiful! Alas, probably not the most efficient way of producing a white light source. Does pumping the dye rely on the short pulses of the N2 laser? What kind of relaxation times do these dyes have?

[info]gravitrue

December 10 2009, 20:10:42 UTC 2 years ago

This is not about efficiency, this is about awesome. :)

[info]nemosed

December 10 2009, 21:20:58 UTC 2 years ago

Things can't be efficient and awesome? Or efficiently awesome?

[info]nemosed

December 10 2009, 21:23:14 UTC 2 years ago

Sorry, meant to add a :P Of course I agree.

[info]jonsinger

2 years ago

[info]jonsinger

December 11 2009, 00:57:23 UTC 2 years ago

A) Isn't it?

B) You are so right; any one of those dyes, on its own, probably puts out 100X as much energy as the mixture. Sigh.

C) Yes and no. It's all a matter of the amount of pump power absorbed in the dye solution. If you can absorb something on the order of 50 kW per cubic cm of dye, you have a good chance of reaching threshold. (That's if there are no special problems.) The advantage of the nitrogen laser is that it is easy to build, and the beam is fairly easy to focus into a line across the front of the cuvette. That helps direct the beam that emerges from the dye. The output pulse of my current nitrogen laser is maybe 6 nsec long, measured at half of the peak amplitude. (FWHM, "Full Width, Half Max".)

D) AFAIK, most of the common laser dyes have relaxation times of <10 nsec. That isn't really much of an issue; a lot of them will lase CW if you get the "used" solution (which is heated by the pump beam, and therefore is optically annoying) out of the way fast enough. The usual method is a jet of dye solution, which you get by pumping the stuff through a specially shaped nozzle. Best I've heard of so far, btw, was Rhodamine 6G, pumped by a 60 or 90 milliwatt green DPSSL. (Roughly speaking, a high-powered laser pointer.) R6G has relaxation time of 4.1 nsec.

Cheers —
jon

[info]jonsinger

December 11 2009, 01:14:22 UTC 2 years ago

Forgot to mention the fact that when your pump pulse is only a few nsec long, even a millijoule or two represents peak power of hundreds of thousands of watts. In that sense, yes: I am depending on the brevity of the N2 laser; but really only in that sense. I have also built flashlamp-pumped organic dye lasers, which have operated for as long as a microsecond or so. (Needless to say, though, one hell of a lot more than a millijoule went into those flashlamps!)

Under fully optimum conditions, btw, I think you can threshold Rhodamine 6G or any of the few other truly superb laser dyes with only ~5 kW absorbed per cc; but everything has to be just right in order for it to exhibit a threshold that low. Also, any light that doesn't get absorbed doesn't count, so the 5 kW number is not quite realistic.

Best —
jon

[info]nemosed

December 11 2009, 03:48:29 UTC 2 years ago

Wow, I had no idea about needing to use a jet of dye, but heating issues were going to be my next question :)

Yes, I think the short pulse/peak power issue was sort of what I had in mind, but the dyes seem like very robust systems. And not particularly fiddly, unless you're trying to get white light :) (Not to mention, considering how long it took to figure out how to manufacture white LEDs, I think you're well on top.)

[info]jonsinger

2 years ago

[info]gomeza

December 10 2009, 17:17:55 UTC 2 years ago

Has ANYONE published doing this before? I'm fascinated.

Knew about so-called "RGB" mixed-gas (Ar-Kr) ion lasers, but had only heard of separate dye lasers (separate cuvettes as you pointed out) being used for multi-color dyes. And of course diode lasers, but we shall not build those. (ahem)

[info]jonsinger

December 11 2009, 00:58:36 UTC 2 years ago

A) I have never seen anything about it, but I haven't made a concentrated search.

B) Yup. It is not an easy thing to build your own fab shop so you can make semiconductor lasers...

Cheers —
jon

[info]gomeza

2 years ago

[info]jonsinger

2 years ago

[info]donsimpson

December 10 2009, 19:57:43 UTC 2 years ago

Jon, I am delighted by your accomplishment here, and at the result. Wow.

[info]jonsinger

December 11 2009, 01:02:43 UTC 2 years ago

Thanks!

I had a ton of fun, and only moderate frustration. It is, however, very true that there's not much real point in it — obtaining RGB output from separate dyes is much more efficient, and gives you better control over the CRI.

I took it on as an exercise, figuring I'd learn some things from it, and also because it didn't involve any heavy lifting. Time enough for the heavy stuff after I get over the cold.

Cheers —
jon

[info]shevek

January 3 2010, 01:45:58 UTC 2 years ago

*happy bounce* I'm so glad to have found you on here. :-) I don't read as often as, for social purposes, perhaps I ought, but this is my main (only) real social place, so yay!

[info]jonsinger

January 3 2010, 08:06:53 UTC 2 years ago

Hi.

Likewise!

Alas, I am usually running around quite headlessly trying to get somewhere with one project or another, and almost never get to read (or even post) here, which is rather a shame. Perhaps this will encourage me to be a bit more active.

Hope the new year is treating you well. I am looking at falling snow from a warm room, and have had what seem to be several good laser notions during the past 2 or 3 days, so I'm generally rather pleased with things.

Are you the person who mentioned the Demo scene to me? I am having some vagueness about this, as it has just entered my awareness again in a very different context and more than a year since what I think was my original encounter with it; someone here is interested & enthusiastic, and has apparently started organizing an event.

Hugs —
jon
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